My Wife's Grandfather, according to the marriage certificate, was Joseph Francis Purcell but I have proved that this was an alias. He joined the Royal Irish Rangers on 30th December 1902 , at the age of 18yrs and 9 months (Feb 1883). He attested that he was born in Johnstown Kilkenny, and his next of kin was a step Sister Mary D****n. I have checked for a birth date without success. On the 1901 Irish census there is a Michael Purcell of the right age living with his uncle John in Johnstown, Kilkenny. Uncle John's Mother Cathrine also lived with them.
If he is the right Michael Purcell, then uncle John is Michaels fathers brother (as is Emond at the same address). I have checked John & Emond for their birth certificates and failed. John is on the Irish 1911 census but I could not find Emond. Michael was on the English 1911 census and he was with the 9th Lancers in Lydd Kent (8 months before he got married to my wife's Grandmother).
Lots of dates for births/ marriages do not fit very well so I do not believe this is the right Michael Purcell. Of course he may have lied about his name at the attestation. I would welcome any advice or suggestions. Thank you
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Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
Isn't this the chap who stole a bike when he was still in the army, and was discharged for it? Then he joined the Merchant Navy? (I recall a 2018/2019 thread regarding this fellow. "Both" men were grooms, and that was one of the links).
Question: Is JFP/MP's father and occupation listed on the 1911 marriage certificate? If there isn't a father named on the certificate, one thing to consider is that JFP/MP was possibly an orphan and not related to the Purcell family in Johnstown. If you have the correct MP (as per that 1901 census record) why list a step-sister as next-of-kin on the attestation record, rather than one's "uncle"? Makes me wonder if the family relationships were described appropriately by all concerned.
The 1901 Irish census report you mention lists Michael Purcell's birthplace as Co. Tipperary. Have you also searched Tipperary for a possible birth/baptism record? I note there's a Mary Purcell (age 14) on the census report, described as "niece" and also born in Co. Tipperary. Could she be Michael's sister? Might be worth investigating.
Question: Is JFP/MP's father and occupation listed on the 1911 marriage certificate? If there isn't a father named on the certificate, one thing to consider is that JFP/MP was possibly an orphan and not related to the Purcell family in Johnstown. If you have the correct MP (as per that 1901 census record) why list a step-sister as next-of-kin on the attestation record, rather than one's "uncle"? Makes me wonder if the family relationships were described appropriately by all concerned.
The 1901 Irish census report you mention lists Michael Purcell's birthplace as Co. Tipperary. Have you also searched Tipperary for a possible birth/baptism record? I note there's a Mary Purcell (age 14) on the census report, described as "niece" and also born in Co. Tipperary. Could she be Michael's sister? Might be worth investigating.
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
Hello,
Thank you for your reply.
Yes this is the same person you helped me with before.
The attestation where he gave the step sister as NOK was in 1902. On the marriage certificate the father in Oct 1911 is stated as James Purcell (deceased), occupation - of independent means. I researched birth and death certificates of any James Purcell from 1820 to 1911 without success. As the NOK was Mary and not James, then perhaps James was not his fathers name. I had considered MP was an orphan and that the Mary on the 1901 census was his sister. Therefore on the census, Catherine would be their Grand Mother. I checked for marriages for all Cathrines in Ireland and no dates made sense. So I looked at children born to a mother Cathrine (and variants) and could not find any with a John, Edmond and a another son and a Mary. I checked all the above for both Kilkenny and Tipperary and Queens (for Edmon).
I also looked at births for Mary and marriages (using the name on the Attestation- D*****n).
Thank you for your reply.
Yes this is the same person you helped me with before.
The attestation where he gave the step sister as NOK was in 1902. On the marriage certificate the father in Oct 1911 is stated as James Purcell (deceased), occupation - of independent means. I researched birth and death certificates of any James Purcell from 1820 to 1911 without success. As the NOK was Mary and not James, then perhaps James was not his fathers name. I had considered MP was an orphan and that the Mary on the 1901 census was his sister. Therefore on the census, Catherine would be their Grand Mother. I checked for marriages for all Cathrines in Ireland and no dates made sense. So I looked at children born to a mother Cathrine (and variants) and could not find any with a John, Edmond and a another son and a Mary. I checked all the above for both Kilkenny and Tipperary and Queens (for Edmon).
I also looked at births for Mary and marriages (using the name on the Attestation- D*****n).
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
John’s children’s births have the mmn of HICKEY, and his wife is Janey, so the marriage looks likely to be the one in 1892, Urlingford – John Purcell & Jane Hickey. John’s father was named as James Purcell, a blacksmith, which ties in nicely with their first son also being James. The witnesses were Michael & Ellen Purcell.
There is a baptism on 16 April 1866 in the parish of Ballyadams, County of Laois (Queen's), Diocese of Kildare and Leighlin for EDWARD Purcell s/o James Purcell & Catherine Connelly of Wolfhill. However, the birth certificate, registered in Athy, gives his DoB as 10 April 1866 and names his parents as James Purcell, Blacksmith, and Catherine nee Kelly. The address is confirmed as Wolfhill.
So is Emond actually Edward?
There is a baptism on 16 April 1866 in the parish of Ballyadams, County of Laois (Queen's), Diocese of Kildare and Leighlin for EDWARD Purcell s/o James Purcell & Catherine Connelly of Wolfhill. However, the birth certificate, registered in Athy, gives his DoB as 10 April 1866 and names his parents as James Purcell, Blacksmith, and Catherine nee Kelly. The address is confirmed as Wolfhill.
So is Emond actually Edward?
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
It may or may not be the same man, but there is a death registered in 1895, Clonmel, of James Purcell aged 60, occupation Smith, giving his address as the asylum
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
I notice that Edmond's death was registered in 1905 (Urlingford RD) by Mary Dillon, Niece, present at the death, Johnstown.
Mary Dillon aged 19 of Donaghmore (the townland for Johnstown) married Thomas Boucher at the RC chapel at Johnstown in March 1905, naming her father as Michael Dillon, Labourer. This would put her at the same age as 'Mary Purcell' from the 1901 census.
In the 1911 census she givers her PoB as Tipperary
Mary Dillon aged 19 of Donaghmore (the townland for Johnstown) married Thomas Boucher at the RC chapel at Johnstown in March 1905, naming her father as Michael Dillon, Labourer. This would put her at the same age as 'Mary Purcell' from the 1901 census.
In the 1911 census she givers her PoB as Tipperary
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
Still not joining the dots back to Michael born c1882, but Catherine Purcell (mother of John) died 2 March 1911, described as the widow of a blacksmith. Her death was registered by Jane Purcell, daughter-in-law.
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
Michaels attestation in 1902, said NOK was Mary D****n (middlepart unreadable) stepsister. If Dillon was her name and she was the niece of Edmon and hence John, then Michael's father would have also been her uncle. This does not explain why in 1901 census she was Mary Purcell, and in 1902 on Michael's attestation she was Mary Dillon, unless Michaels mother remarried to a Dillon and Mary changed her name
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
According to "The Oxford Names Companion" Edward and Edmund are different names with different derivations.
Edward is from the old English personal name ead +weard
and Edmund is fromthe OE ead + mund
Edward is from the old English personal name ead +weard
and Edmund is fromthe OE ead + mund
Re: Where is Michael Purcell's Birth certificate and who is his Mother.
I disagree that the middle part of the name of Michael's NoK is unreadable, I read it very clearly as Mary Dillon - that's why I went looking for that particular name.
Edward, Edmond, Edmund, Edwin etc are all different names, as you say, but there are numerous examples of names being recorded incorrectly. To my mind there are just too many coincidences for it all to be just a coincidence.
I think you may also need to consider that relationships aren't always straightforward or described correctly. For example, I call my cousin's granddaughter my niece, and my son (who is a similar age to her) calls her his cousin.
The only record I can find that ties both surnames together is a marriage in 1870 between Michael Purcell aged 50 (father = Pat Purcell) & Ellen Dillon aged 30. Could they be the Michael & Ellen Purcell who witnessed John & Jane's marriage?
Edward, Edmond, Edmund, Edwin etc are all different names, as you say, but there are numerous examples of names being recorded incorrectly. To my mind there are just too many coincidences for it all to be just a coincidence.
I think you may also need to consider that relationships aren't always straightforward or described correctly. For example, I call my cousin's granddaughter my niece, and my son (who is a similar age to her) calls her his cousin.
The only record I can find that ties both surnames together is a marriage in 1870 between Michael Purcell aged 50 (father = Pat Purcell) & Ellen Dillon aged 30. Could they be the Michael & Ellen Purcell who witnessed John & Jane's marriage?