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Will Query

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WoolieHE
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Jul 2020, 13:36

Will Query

Post by WoolieHE »

I hope someone can help me. Phillip Dyer died in 1730 Ilfracombe. His Will can be found on Ancestry under Phillipi Dyers with a Probate date of 13 November 1730 Ilfordcombe. It is written in Latin, although I have no Latin, but my rudimentary French gets me by with some of it. I can pick out names in it which are of Dennis and Meyrick which are fine (they are names of his daughters). I cannot however transcribe the date it was signed at the end.

There is a second Will, which I have downloaded from National Archives which is in English the date on that is 20 May 1725/6 (as written on the Will) witnessed by Phillip Dyer, William Smith, Julian Smith and Susannah Wyatt. In this English written Will the names of Dennis and Meyrick are not mentioned at all, but his daughters Mary and Agnes are. Also on the English written Will in the top right hand corner is something written in Latin (see attached). Can anyone shed any light on what it says.

I think there may have been some dispute which rumbled on for a few years (couple of screen shots attached taken from National Archives catalogue search).

Many thanks in advance for any help or suggestion.
Attachments
Catherine Meyrick daughter of Philip Dyer.jpg
Catherine Meyrick daughter of Philip Dyer.jpg (181.57 KiB) Viewed 1351 times
probate declaration.jpg
probate declaration.jpg (141.82 KiB) Viewed 1351 times
Dyer puzzle.jpg
Dyer puzzle.jpg (268.2 KiB) Viewed 1351 times

jonwarrn
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Jul 2020, 19:49

Re: Will Query

Post by jonwarrn »

The will is in English
Will of Phillip Dyer, Marchant of Ilfracombe, Devon
13 January 1731 (was 1730 back then)
PROB 11/642/78
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /r/D635017

The PCC latin document is this
Sentence of Phillip Dyer of Ilfracombe, Devon
3 November 1730
PROB 11/641/91
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /r/D693851

Prerogative Court of Canterbury: Original Sentences
Info here
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... s/r/C12138

Not sure why the will isn't on ancestry.

jonwarrn
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Jul 2020, 19:49

Re: Will Query

Post by jonwarrn »

WoolieHE wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 16:00
It is written in Latin, although I have no Latin, but my rudimentary French gets me by with some of it.
Remember that latin was the language for legal documents in England before 1733.
So perhaps looking at some PCC sentences written in English might give you an idea of them
For example
Sentence of Richard Duke of Otterton, Devon, 6 July 1733
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov. ... /r/D598866

Mick Loney
Posts: 201
Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 07:27

Re: Will Query

Post by Mick Loney »

I think TNA has got description of the 2nd document wrong, describing it as ‘Sentence of ...’! They have translated ‘Sententia’ as Sentence, but abother meaning for it is ‘Will’, which makes more sense!

jonwarrn
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Jul 2020, 19:49

Re: Will Query

Post by jonwarrn »

I should imagine that TNA know what they are doing.
More than I do. Somehow I lost a digit when I was copying, and providing a link to TNA. The sentence date is the 13 Nov 1730, not 3 Nov!
WoolieHE wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 16:00
Also on the English written Will in the top right hand corner is something written in Latin
Presumably along the lines of later examples, something like sentence given for the validity of this will, (and the date of the sentence) 13 Nov 1730.

WoolieHE
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Jul 2020, 13:36

Re: Will Query

Post by WoolieHE »

Thank you for your suggestions. I will have a look at the other examples. I have just found out that a friend of mine did a Degree in Latin, I will see if she can decipher anything from the Latin version as I suspect that this one may be an earlier Will which could be being superseded by the English one.

Many thanks again for your help

jonwarrn
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Jul 2020, 19:49

Re: Will Query

Post by jonwarrn »

Thanks for your thanks. I do think you will probably find that the "sentence" written in latin isn't a will. It may perhaps contain references to people and bequests in the will.
It is likely to be a confirmation by the PCC that the will, proved subsequently, was a valid one. As you have surmised, there was probably a dispute about the will.

Thunder
Posts: 200
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 01:43

Re: Will Query

Post by Thunder »

Mick Loney wrote:
22 Apr 2021, 15:07
I think TNA has got description of the 2nd document wrong, describing it as ‘Sentence of ...’! They have translated ‘Sententia’ as Sentence, but abother meaning for it is ‘Will’, which makes more sense!
These words are nothing to do with TNA but were made at the time of probate I would suggest.

Mick Loney
Posts: 201
Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 07:27

Re: Will Query

Post by Mick Loney »

Maybe, but TNA were the ones that produced the written description of the document, which I thought, rightly or wrongly, may have been an error in translation.

WoolieHE
Posts: 19
Joined: 22 Jul 2020, 13:36

Re: Will Query

Post by WoolieHE »

jonwarrn wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 13:49
Thanks for your thanks. I do think you will probably find that the "sentence" written in latin isn't a will. It may perhaps contain references to people and bequests in the will.
It is likely to be a confirmation by the PCC that the will, proved subsequently, was a valid one. As you have surmised, there was probably a dispute about the will.
Yes!!! Thank you for this comment, it has had me thinking about the Latin document all night. I don't think the document written in Latin (as found on Ancestry) is a Will at all now, but perhaps an arbitration type document. After I wrote my message of thanks I went back to the document and looked at it again and the wording doesn't start off like any wording I am used to seeing in a Will. It also doesn't start with Phillip Dyers name (like the English written Will does), but with Johannen Bettesworth and it is also signed by him.

I used to work for an arbitrator and I think the wording near the beginning of the document is going to come back with something like "in consideration of the PCC Will of Phillip Dyer and the dispute between his legitimate heir and daughter Mary Dyer and his legitimate daughters Catherine Meyrick wife of Henry Meyrick and Susanna Dennis wife if Thomas Dennis".

Many thanks again for your help. If my friend manages to translate the Latin document for me I will post on here again.

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