Hi, I originally posted this on the 6th June, on the WDYTYA webpage.
I hope you can help, my Nana passed away this year without telling us much about her Father, she said this is him: Albert Edward Morse - Born approx 1895-1938, Died of TB.
However we are trying to understand the Uniform he is wearing?....as asa bonus a bit more about him.
I can see four triangles pointing inwards to the centre, but have had no luck identifying the Uniform!
Many Thanks
Emma
I will post all previous replies below...
We welcome any query on Who When Where. If you have previously posted it on another forum (including the old WDYTYA forum), please state this in your opening post - this will save people redoing the research which has been done before: they can look at it and possibly go further with it.
Identity of Uniform
Identity of Uniform
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Last edited by Emmsy81 on 05 Aug 2020, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Identity of Uniform
by MoVidger » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:32 pm
Sorry, can you just re-confirm his year of birth. If he was born c1906 he'd be too young for WW1 service.
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by Emmsy81 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:01 pm
I am only going off what I was told by my Nana, She said approx 1906. Many Thanks
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by brunes08 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:25 am
Emmsy81 wrote:
I am only going off what I was told by my Nana, She said approx 1906. Many Thanks
His name, Albert Edward Morse, is not a common one. I looked on freebmd.org and found only 4 births registered with that name between 1890-1900 and 7 between 1901-07. Do you know where Albert may have been born?
Another thought is that the headgear he has on his lap looks like the sort worn in hotter countries, maybe India. I looked on Ancestry and could only find one army record for an Albert Edward Morse but it wasn’t much help unfortunately.
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by AdrianB38 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:12 pm
That's interesting.... That is, as far as I can see, a British Army uniform and appears to be the lighter weight cloth used for service in hot places. He holds a Wolsey helmet, to give it its proper title, and the band is apparently a pugaree. But what the badge is, I can't tell.
The chap has a single chevron on his lower left arm for Long Service & Good Conduct (according to one of my books one chevron was awarded at 2y Good Conduct and a second wouldn't be awarded until 6y.)
On his lower right sleeve, there are Overseas Service Stripes. Quite how many there are, I'm not sure - 3 or 4, I'd guess. These were awarded annually for overseas service during WW1. For further details see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Service_Chevron. According to Wikipedia
... eligible for award until May 1, 1920 ... Official wear was discontinued in 1922.
Also note that there are no campaign medal ribbons.
Putting it together, we have a soldier with at least 2 years service (based on the LS&GC chevron) - more likely at least 3 or 4 based on the Overseas stripes. And it's before he's been issued with his campaign medals - he'd have got at least one. But I think it took quite some time to issue the campaign medals so that's not too helpful. So I suspect he'd have been sent overseas roughly, vaguely, about, 1915 or 1916, so born 1898 at the latest??? Roughly, vaguely, approximately???
Adrian
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by AdrianB38 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:48 pm
Working from the other end of his life and assuming that 1938 is correct, the only 1938 death on FreeBMD is
Deaths Sep 1938 (>99%)
Morse Albert E 43 Manchester S. 8d 196
NB - there are other Albert E Morse deaths in 1936, 1937 (2 off) & 1943. But age-wise the 1938 entry looks most plausible. The 1938 guy would have been born 1894/95 if that age is correct. In that era, FreeBMD gives us:
Births Sep 1892 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 13
Births Sep 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Ernest Ludlow 6a 562
Births Dec 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
MORSE Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Faringdon 2c 274
There's only 1 birth in 1895, none in 1894 but one shouldn't discard the 1893 births. Highworth spans bits of Wiltshire & Berkshire. Why is Wiltshire interesting to me? Because look at the cap badge on this URL https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/briti ... giment.htm It's actually described as a Maltese Cross and it's vaguely like the badge on the helmet in the photo...
There is however a slight problem army-wise - two guys named Albert Edward Morse both in the Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh's). One was 22809, the other was first 3234 then 201413.
However, right now the Army bit is probably not important - the important thing is whether the guy who died in Manchester is yours? Can you tell?
Adrian
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by Jethro Tull » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:43 pm
Hi Emmsy81,
I have had a quick look though some of my books and the flash on the sun hat to me looks like it could be the flash for the Seaforth Highlanders. Its not massively clear from this pic but it could be.
Cheers
Dan
Sorry, can you just re-confirm his year of birth. If he was born c1906 he'd be too young for WW1 service.
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by Emmsy81 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:01 pm
I am only going off what I was told by my Nana, She said approx 1906. Many Thanks
-----------
by brunes08 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:25 am
Emmsy81 wrote:
I am only going off what I was told by my Nana, She said approx 1906. Many Thanks
His name, Albert Edward Morse, is not a common one. I looked on freebmd.org and found only 4 births registered with that name between 1890-1900 and 7 between 1901-07. Do you know where Albert may have been born?
Another thought is that the headgear he has on his lap looks like the sort worn in hotter countries, maybe India. I looked on Ancestry and could only find one army record for an Albert Edward Morse but it wasn’t much help unfortunately.
-----------
by AdrianB38 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:12 pm
That's interesting.... That is, as far as I can see, a British Army uniform and appears to be the lighter weight cloth used for service in hot places. He holds a Wolsey helmet, to give it its proper title, and the band is apparently a pugaree. But what the badge is, I can't tell.
The chap has a single chevron on his lower left arm for Long Service & Good Conduct (according to one of my books one chevron was awarded at 2y Good Conduct and a second wouldn't be awarded until 6y.)
On his lower right sleeve, there are Overseas Service Stripes. Quite how many there are, I'm not sure - 3 or 4, I'd guess. These were awarded annually for overseas service during WW1. For further details see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Service_Chevron. According to Wikipedia
... eligible for award until May 1, 1920 ... Official wear was discontinued in 1922.
Also note that there are no campaign medal ribbons.
Putting it together, we have a soldier with at least 2 years service (based on the LS&GC chevron) - more likely at least 3 or 4 based on the Overseas stripes. And it's before he's been issued with his campaign medals - he'd have got at least one. But I think it took quite some time to issue the campaign medals so that's not too helpful. So I suspect he'd have been sent overseas roughly, vaguely, about, 1915 or 1916, so born 1898 at the latest??? Roughly, vaguely, approximately???
Adrian
------------
by AdrianB38 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:48 pm
Working from the other end of his life and assuming that 1938 is correct, the only 1938 death on FreeBMD is
Deaths Sep 1938 (>99%)
Morse Albert E 43 Manchester S. 8d 196
NB - there are other Albert E Morse deaths in 1936, 1937 (2 off) & 1943. But age-wise the 1938 entry looks most plausible. The 1938 guy would have been born 1894/95 if that age is correct. In that era, FreeBMD gives us:
Births Sep 1892 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 13
Births Sep 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Ernest Ludlow 6a 562
Births Dec 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
MORSE Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Faringdon 2c 274
There's only 1 birth in 1895, none in 1894 but one shouldn't discard the 1893 births. Highworth spans bits of Wiltshire & Berkshire. Why is Wiltshire interesting to me? Because look at the cap badge on this URL https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/briti ... giment.htm It's actually described as a Maltese Cross and it's vaguely like the badge on the helmet in the photo...
There is however a slight problem army-wise - two guys named Albert Edward Morse both in the Wiltshire Regiment (Duke of Edinburgh's). One was 22809, the other was first 3234 then 201413.
However, right now the Army bit is probably not important - the important thing is whether the guy who died in Manchester is yours? Can you tell?
Adrian
--------------
by Jethro Tull » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:43 pm
Hi Emmsy81,
I have had a quick look though some of my books and the flash on the sun hat to me looks like it could be the flash for the Seaforth Highlanders. Its not massively clear from this pic but it could be.
Cheers
Dan
-
Mick Loney
- Posts: 377
- Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 07:27
Re: Identity of Uniform
Dan,
I agree! Having had a look at the cloth badge for the Seaforth Highlanders, it is a very good match for the one in the photo.
Like the photo, it has only one narrow white line going up across from left to right, ( the one going from right to left would be in red, so would not be as clearly visible in the photo).
Had it been the Wiltshire regiment, I’d expect both lines to be wider and more clearly visible.
I agree! Having had a look at the cloth badge for the Seaforth Highlanders, it is a very good match for the one in the photo.
Like the photo, it has only one narrow white line going up across from left to right, ( the one going from right to left would be in red, so would not be as clearly visible in the photo).
Had it been the Wiltshire regiment, I’d expect both lines to be wider and more clearly visible.
-
AdrianBruce
- Posts: 361
- Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 18:57
- Location: South Cheshire
Re: Identity of Uniform
So, to list what we know given that we have confirmed the date of death earlier:
The Manchester Burial Records are on https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/. These show that:
Albert Edward Morse was buried at Southern Cemetery in grave SConsecrated (is that section S, Consecrated graves? not sure) grave 4109 on 20 July 1938. (I never quite trust these dates - sometimes they claim it's a burial date but it turns out to be a death date or vice versa). A Lilian Morse is also buried in that grave in 1977.
(Warning - I tried searching for Albert Morse and got nothing - I had to search for Albert Edward Morse - not sure if there's any other setting to get round that oddity - I didn't try).
So, as indicated previously, the FreeBMD index for his death is
Deaths Sep 1938 (>99%)
Morse Albert E 43 Manchester S. 8d 196
This implies he was born 1894/95.
FreeBMD then gives these possibilities for his birth record (note that I have now added the Mother's maiden name from the GRO site to this list):
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1892 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 13
(Mother's maiden name - Buckland)
Births Sep 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Ernest Ludlow 6a 562
(MMN - Blackburn - this is Ernest so isn't right, of course)
Births Dec 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
(MMN - Simpkins)
Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
MORSE Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
(MMN - Hunt)
Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Faringdon 2c 274
(MMN - Pike)
The most likely is probably
Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
MORSE Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
(MMN - Hunt)
but we shouldn't dismiss the others. To decide which is his birth, you need to send off for his marriage certificate first, get his father's name from that, and probably then send off for the Q2 / June 1895 birth certificate and see if the father's name matches. (You may be able to send off and say "Only send it if the father's name is XXXX" - I've never done that recently). If it's not the Q2 1895 one, well, you have to try the others...
It's possible to do a bit of preliminary guesswork - for instance, there are several Morse / Hunt marriages in FreeBMD but this looks interesting:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1893 (>99%)
Hunt Annie Highworth 5a 27
Morse William John B Highworth 5a 27
William John (furnaceman in Brass Foundry) and Annie Morse are in Swindon for the 1911 census - they have a son Albert Edward (GPO messenger boy) - but is it your Albert Edward? Only your Albert Edward's marriage certificate will help there.
I was hoping that the electoral registers for Swindon might help but I can't find any in FMP.
The Manchester Burial Records are on https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/. These show that:
Albert Edward Morse was buried at Southern Cemetery in grave SConsecrated (is that section S, Consecrated graves? not sure) grave 4109 on 20 July 1938. (I never quite trust these dates - sometimes they claim it's a burial date but it turns out to be a death date or vice versa). A Lilian Morse is also buried in that grave in 1977.
(Warning - I tried searching for Albert Morse and got nothing - I had to search for Albert Edward Morse - not sure if there's any other setting to get round that oddity - I didn't try).
So, as indicated previously, the FreeBMD index for his death is
Deaths Sep 1938 (>99%)
Morse Albert E 43 Manchester S. 8d 196
This implies he was born 1894/95.
FreeBMD then gives these possibilities for his birth record (note that I have now added the Mother's maiden name from the GRO site to this list):
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1892 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 13
(Mother's maiden name - Buckland)
Births Sep 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Ernest Ludlow 6a 562
(MMN - Blackburn - this is Ernest so isn't right, of course)
Births Dec 1893 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
(MMN - Simpkins)
Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
MORSE Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
(MMN - Hunt)
Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Morse Albert Edward Faringdon 2c 274
(MMN - Pike)
The most likely is probably
Births Jun 1895 (>99%)
MORSE Albert Edward Highworth 5a 24
(MMN - Hunt)
but we shouldn't dismiss the others. To decide which is his birth, you need to send off for his marriage certificate first, get his father's name from that, and probably then send off for the Q2 / June 1895 birth certificate and see if the father's name matches. (You may be able to send off and say "Only send it if the father's name is XXXX" - I've never done that recently). If it's not the Q2 1895 one, well, you have to try the others...
It's possible to do a bit of preliminary guesswork - for instance, there are several Morse / Hunt marriages in FreeBMD but this looks interesting:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1893 (>99%)
Hunt Annie Highworth 5a 27
Morse William John B Highworth 5a 27
William John (furnaceman in Brass Foundry) and Annie Morse are in Swindon for the 1911 census - they have a son Albert Edward (GPO messenger boy) - but is it your Albert Edward? Only your Albert Edward's marriage certificate will help there.
I was hoping that the electoral registers for Swindon might help but I can't find any in FMP.
Adrian Bruce
Re: Identity of Uniform
You are all amazing, Thank You so much for all the information you have given x
Re: Identity of Uniform
I have ordered Albert's Marriage Certificate so hopefully that will give us more of a clue to who he is! x
-
Swilliams69
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 11 Jun 2020, 15:15
Re: Identity of Uniform
Hi Emmsy81 do you mind if we send this pic to our military expert at Who Do You Think You Are? Magazine? We run a military photo identification question each month and it's been a quiet month for military pics this month. It would appear in our September or October issue.
Regards
Sarah
Regards
Sarah
Re: Identity of Uniform
Hi Sarah
I would be happy for you to send my photo to the Who do you think you are magazine.
Regards
Emma
I would be happy for you to send my photo to the Who do you think you are magazine.
Regards
Emma
Re: Identity of Uniform
Do you know the names of any of his brothers or sisters. If so the 1911 census might help. There may be names carried forward into later generations?
There is an Albert Edward Morse - Aged 17 in 1911 Wroughton, Wiltshire, England as a Farm Labourer. However from probate records I now think this Albert probably died in 1970, still in Wroughton.
There is an Albert Edward Morse - Aged 17 in 1911 Wroughton, Wiltshire, England as a Farm Labourer. However from probate records I now think this Albert probably died in 1970, still in Wroughton.
Re: Identity of Uniform
Is this the most likely 1911 census
Name: Albert Edward Morse, Age in 1911: 16
Birth Place: Swindon, Wiltshire, England
Street address: 19 Edmund Street, Swindon
Marital status: Single, Occupation: Messenger Boy
William John Morse 40
Annie Elizabeth Morse 46
Albert Edward Morse 16
Mabel Maud Mary Morse 14
Francis Alexander Morse 11
Name: Albert Edward Morse, Age in 1911: 16
Birth Place: Swindon, Wiltshire, England
Street address: 19 Edmund Street, Swindon
Marital status: Single, Occupation: Messenger Boy
William John Morse 40
Annie Elizabeth Morse 46
Albert Edward Morse 16
Mabel Maud Mary Morse 14
Francis Alexander Morse 11