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Don't believe the indexes

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Thunder
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Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 01:43

Don't believe the indexes

Post by Thunder »

I have come across a case of a Stephen Charles Philip Pither who was registered at the Paddington Register Office in London on 28 July 1930 by a Mrs Violet Philomene PITHER nee Chapman as her child, in fact it wasn't her child and she had applied to be a foster mother to the mother (Mrs Winifred Bailey of West Ham). When Pither was caught she was sent to prison for three months for giving the birth register false information. The false entry is still on the GRO indexes, one would hope that GRO would not produce the certificate to anyone. The relevant file at TNA is MEPO 3/406: 1930-1931: Mrs Violet [Philomene] PITHER [nee Chapman] [31 in 1930]: making a false registration of birth of male child [aged three weeks old] and falsely reporting the baby stolen (the square brackets are mine from published newspaper reports). I have not viewed the file at TNA yet but the information above is from published newspaper reports on the British Newspaper Archive.
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Guy
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Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by Guy »

I disagree with your "The false entry is still on the GRO indexes, one would hope that GRO would not produce the certificate to anyone.". The GRO have a legal duty to provide a certificate of the event.
The Relevant law being the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953.
“30, (2) Any person shall be entitled to search the said indexes at any time when the General Register Office is open for that purpose, and to have a certified copy of any entry in the said certified copies, on payment to the Registrar General or to such other person on his behalf of the following fees respectively, that is to say-…”
They have no choice in the matter of which certificate they will produce and which they will not produce, but have to produce a certificate for any entry required.
The researcher may be building a reference to errors in the register or suspected fraudulent entries etc. The GRO have no idea why a particular entry is required.

Cheers
Guy
As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.
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AdrianBruce
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Location: South Cheshire

Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by AdrianBruce »

One can't tell from the indexes whether the certificate has been cancelled or not, or whether it will be produced or not. At least, one can't tell in the one case I dealt with.

This case concerns the "infamous" (to long-term visitors to the WDYTYA forum) Edith Roya. Edith, now married to Ezra Manning, went to register a child as the child of her and her husband - or at least, I believe that she did, based on the child's surname and the Mother's Maiden Name, which was Edith's current purported maiden name. I know that this registration took place because it's in the original GRO indexes and in the new digital GRO index.

In fact, the child was born to a Nellie Harris, who also registered the birth. As Nellie was by then living in Hartlepool (the child having been born in Liverpool), a declaration document was created there so that Liverpool could create the birth certificate. Somehow, perhaps because of the distinctive name of the child, Liverpool put two and two together and realised that Edith was not entitled to register the child. I believe that Liverpool then cancelled the certificate raised by Edith (because it doesn't appear in the LiverpoolBMD index and there appears to be an entry missing from one of their page numbers) and sent a cancellation note (or whatever the term is!) to the GRO. For whatever reason, as I said above, the "Edith" registration appears in the original GRO indexes and the new digital GRO index.

When I sent for that "Edith" registration in 2019, I got the response:
We have been unable to process your application ... There is an inconsistency in the indexes which occurred when the index was compiled; we are therefore unable to trace an entry with the details supplied.
I believe that the 2019 clerk saw the "cancellation" note on the "Edith" certificate and declined to issue it. Quite rightly (if frustrating to me!) The same note was ignored by the compiler of the digital index - maybe cancellation wasn't in their instructions!

So, as I said, I couldn't tell from the indexes whether the "Edith" registration had been cancelled or not, nor was there any clue that issue was going to be declined.

I should point out that in the absence of any sight of the "Edith" certificate, some of the above is reasonable speculation....
Adrian Bruce
Thunder
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Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by Thunder »

I know from a case in the early 1960s where two lesbians married in London by trying to deceive the Registrar that one of them was a man that the Registrar General refused to issue a copy of the certificate to them or anyone else and a note to that effect would be made if anyone enquired.
Norfolk Nan
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Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by Norfolk Nan »

I had an index entry for a certificate that didn’t exist (fee refunded fully) but the GRO didn’t reply to my email asking why.

Adrian’s story reminded me of a vaguely similar story in my tree so I’ve taken another look at the birth in question and can’t find it at all in the GRO index. It’s there in the Ancestry data with full GRO reference but doesn’t come up in the GRO index. So that’s one 1 index ref and no cert and 1 cert with no ref!

Anyway - if a birth is registered incorrectly what is the process for correcting the record? I’m referring to the wrong father named at the first registration. Would the original record stay in the register? Or would it be replaced with the correct version? Or would both be included in the register?
meekhcs
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Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by meekhcs »

I am sure Anthony M will step in if I am wrong but I believe the latest record would appear in the GRO, and would be marked as an occasional copy, and is the one that would be issued by the GRO. NB no refernece to occasional copy is on the actual certificate but is against the entry at GRO.
I think the original would still be held locally, as well as the updated entry, but I am not sure if they would issue a copy of the original.
Sally
Norfolk Nan
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Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by Norfolk Nan »

Thank you. I have a copy of the original (possibly only) cert bought back in the days when you had to search those big registers in St Catherine’s in London. I don’t think I looked for the other version then. Does a missing online index entry suggest simple error or something else?
meekhcs
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Location: Lincolnshire, but Hampshire born and bred!

Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by meekhcs »

I cannot answer that one for you.
My Father's Birth certificate is marked "Occasional Copy A" on the GRO Index and I never did get an explanation as to why. As far as the local Register office and the GRO were concerned the only copies they had were identical. I only found out about the addendum because his entry now appears in the GRO online Index. I have no experience of a missing entry.
Sally
AntonyM
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Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by AntonyM »

GRO can, and do (but only very occasionally), block access to register entries in cases of crime/fraud etc ... which may explain why the entry doesn't appear in the GRO on-line index. You could still attempt to order a copy using the reference from the printed index and see what happens though, or you could order from the local registration office.
Norfolk Nan wrote: 17 Oct 2021, 20:44 Adrian’s story reminded me of a vaguely similar story in my tree so I’ve taken another look at the birth in question and can’t find it at all in the GRO index. It’s there in the Ancestry data with full GRO reference but doesn’t come up in the GRO index. So that’s one 1 index ref and no cert and 1 cert with no ref!
You can often get different results when searching the old printed indexes (as used on FreeBMD and Ancestry etc.) and when using the new GRO on-line index, because they use different indexing rules, especially around the indexing of illegitimate children (where both parents are named).
Norfolk Nan wrote: 17 Oct 2021, 20:44 Anyway - if a birth is registered incorrectly what is the process for correcting the record? I’m referring to the wrong father named at the first registration. Would the original record stay in the register? Or would it be replaced with the correct version? Or would both be included in the register?
There is a correction process - how difficult and what level of authority is required depends on the seriousness of the error. How that reflects in the index would depend on the correction made, but if the father's name were changed, it may appear under both surnames, or just under the "new" one depending on a) when the index was updated and b) which index you are using.
Professional Researcher (retired) and former Deputy Registrar
AntonyM
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Re: Don't believe the indexes

Post by AntonyM »

Norfolk Nan wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 10:20 Thank you. I have a copy of the original (possibly only) cert bought back in the days when you had to search those big registers in St Catherine’s in London. I don’t think I looked for the other version then. Does a missing online index entry suggest simple error or something else?
A certificate isn't an original - it is a certified copy of the register entry showing the information as it was at the time the certificate is produced. Register entries can be corrected and changed - so a certificate produced later can be different.
Professional Researcher (retired) and former Deputy Registrar
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