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Find my Past subscriptions

A space for genealogy-related conversations.
paulr1949
Posts: 147
Joined: 02 Jun 2020, 18:25
Location: North West Kent

Find my Past subscriptions

Post by paulr1949 »

I've had an email this morning telling me that the "British" subscription (which was withdrawn for new subscribers a few years ago) is now being withdrawn for everybody. I have been able to continue with this susbcription providing that I renew without interruption, and jhave done so because it included the newspaper search access.
The good news is that, for the remaining 5 months of my subscription, it has been upgraded to "Pro", so I can still search the newspapers and in addition I can view worldwide records. The bad news is that, apart from the Pro susbscription, when I renew, if I want to continue being able to search the newspapers, I will have to pay an extra £50 or so a year - they say they will contact me later in the year and tell me how much it will be.
Paul
Norfolk Nan
Posts: 506
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Norfolk Nan »

I took a break from FMP and then took a recurring monthly subscription including newspapers. In recent weeks I've realised how unreliable their transcriptions are and, unlike Ancestry's London records, how few actual records are viewable. Perhaps I've just been unlucky with my current area of research. If they're going to put the price up I will be thinking twice before continuing. Many of the records they provide are freely available on FamilySearch. The newspapers are useful and add colour but as I don't do research outside the UK a worldwide subscription is a bit over the top.
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AdrianBruce
Posts: 358
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 18:57
Location: South Cheshire

Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by AdrianBruce »

There'll always be an overlap between the big 3 (Ancestry, FMP & FS - I discount Myheritage for UK purposes) and that overlap will grow as stuff comes out of its contracted periods of exclusivity. So you do need to check carefully what's available where. However, be very careful with FamilySearch - they have all sorts of collections that are nothing like complete and no indication of how incomplete they are. Well, the other 2 aren't a lot better but they do (usually) work towards completeness, whereas FS seem seriously vague about completeness and don't even seem to understand why their lack of knowledge is important.
Adrian Bruce
Mick Loney
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Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 07:27

Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Mick Loney »

But you failed to mention that FS has the best advantage - it's free :D
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Guy
Posts: 135
Joined: 01 Jun 2020, 19:14
Location: Wakefield
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Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Guy »

AdrianBruce , you are being unfair to Familysearch with your comments Anscestry & FindmyPast are commercial organisations created to provide family history data to the public for payment.
Familysearch is based on data collected for members of the Church of Latter-day Saints (LDS) for and by church members of the Church.
It was not designed to be a public service that use has developed by the Church's generousity and sharing attitude. Much of the data contained on Familysearch is ignored and even unknown to the general public when it is found the general public claim it is inaccurate (the Church Ordinances) but they are the most accurate sections of the data held as they are meticuliouly recorded at the time of the event unlike most records used by family historians.
These Church Ordinances are 100% accurate and 100% complete, no other dataset used by family historians can claim that.
They are also the reason the LDS collect the other data contained in Familysearch, that being the reason there is no need for them to know if the parish register information is complete as they do not require it to be complete.
It is the same as you looking for an Ancestor in a village who moved there in 1820 and left the village in 1830. The only records you need for that village are for that period of time and perhaps a few years before and after, you do not need the records for 100 years before.

I am afraid you have committed a very basic error in not understanding what the records you are accessing have been created for, in this case they have been created to support the internal LDS Church Ordinances, rather than the family history reasons Church of England parish registers are created.
That I suggest is a big difference.
Cheers
Guy
As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.
Hardwork
Posts: 86
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 14:15

Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Hardwork »

Guy, that is also why the original CFI and later IGI ignored deaths and burials and why so many ordinances are therefore based on inaccurately constructed family trees. Surely, trying to prove a line of descent and constructing a family tree are exactly the same exercise whether it is being conducted by the armchair family historian for pleasure or a religious convert for retrospective baptisms? Trying to build a tree whilst ignoring death records is like only examining half the evidence in a trial.

As good as Family Search now may be, the original premise and construction was, as you rightly point out, unscientifically undertaken and that is why it should only be trusted as far as the direct evidence it contains and not by any information from ordinances alone.

The "generosity" is another moot point but personally I feel the real "generosity" has been that of those who decided to allow reproduction of national and church records to commercial and other organisations in exchange for payment instead of providing the records by the state to the public at a cost to part-fund the ongoing upkeep of public repositories.
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Guy
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Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Guy »

Hardwork wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 09:51
The "generosity" is another moot point but personally I feel the real "generosity" has been that of those who decided to allow reproduction of national and church records to commercial and other organisations in exchange for payment instead of providing the records by the state to the public at a cost to part-fund the ongoing upkeep of public repositories.
Sorry, I do not understand your above point, there is no generosity in having to obey the law.

In 1644 an ordinance was passed that :-
"... and it is further ordained, by the authority aforesaid, that there shall be provided, at the charge of every parish or chappelry in this realm of England and dominion of Wales a fair register-book of velim be kept by the minister and other officers of the church; and that the names of all children baptized, and of their parents, and the time of their birth and baptizing, shall be written and set down by the ministers therein ; and also the names of all persons married there and the time of their marriage ; and also the names of all persons buried in that parish, and the time of their death and burial ; and that said book shall be showed, by such as keep the same, to all persons reasonably desiring to search for the birth, baptizing, marriage, or burial of any person therein registered, and to take a copy or procure a certificate thereof."

That church ordnance was/is part of the law of England and Wales and as such has to be obeyed by the Church of England clergy.
I would also point out that there is also a duty on the clergy to keep the Parish Registers safe, by allowing organisations to film, digitise and otherwise copy their records the various church authorities are benefiting by having a duplicate or duplicates of those valuable records made.
They are also relieved of much of the duty to allow the public access to their records asthose records are available elsewhere, so they gain in that respect as well allowing them to concentrate on their pastoral duties.
Cheers
Guy
As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.
Hardwork
Posts: 86
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 14:15

Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Hardwork »

Sorry Guy, a misunderstanding of your response to Adrian B. I thought you were referring to the ordinances of the LDS throughout. My reference on that basis was to the numerous trees constructed based using the original Computer File Index information which generally ignored burial data, which in turn was not usually displayed in the CFI, thereby rendering many of the said trees inputted by LDS members, as inaccurate at that time.

I appreciate the need to protect the registers and encourage duplication but my contention is that the duty for that did not lie solely with the Church but the State. The very ordinance you quote was a decidedly civil one from the Long Parliament and not a religious one, so presumably the very act of surrendering the documents means the responsibilities you quote then pass to the state once documents are surrendered. The various public archives are tax payer funded and as such the government should have been responsible for digitising its holdings itself as a revenue stream for supporting the funding of archives, in my opinion, and not sold on to private companies in exchange/part exchange for the costs of the digitisation.
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Guy
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Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Guy »

Hardwork wrote: 16 Apr 2021, 11:37 Sorry Guy, a misunderstanding of your response to Adrian B. I thought you were referring to the ordinances of the LDS throughout. My reference on that basis was to the numerous trees constructed based using the original Computer File Index information which generally ignored burial data, which in turn was not usually displayed in the CFI, thereby rendering many of the said trees inputted by LDS members, as inaccurate at that time.

I appreciate the need to protect the registers and encourage duplication but my contention is that the duty for that did not lie solely with the Church but the State. The very ordinance you quote was a decidedly civil one from the Long Parliament and not a religious one, so presumably the very act of surrendering the documents means the responsibilities you quote then pass to the state once documents are surrendered. The various public archives are tax payer funded and as such the government should have been responsible for digitising its holdings itself as a revenue stream for supporting the funding of archives, in my opinion, and not sold on to private companies in exchange/part exchange for the costs of the digitisation.
Not so ever since Thomas Cromwell, the Vicar General, issued the following order for keeping parish registers on 29 September 1538 it has been the duty of the parson, vicar or curate to provide safe keeping for his/her parish registers:-

“Item that yow and eny (every) pson (parson) vicare or curate this dioc (diocese) shall for euery churche kepe one boke or reistre wherin ye shall write the day and yere of every weddyng christenyng and buryeng made wtin (within) yor pishe for yowr tyme, and so euy man succedyng yow lykewise. And shall there inserte euy psons (persons) name that shalbe so weddid  christened or buried, And for the sauff keping of the same boke the  pishe shalbe boude (bound) to puide (provide) of there comen charges one sure coffer with twoo lockes and keys wherof the one to remain wt (with) you, and thother with the saide wardons, wherein the saide boke shalbe laide vpp. Whiche boke ye shall every sonday take furthe and in the psence (presence) of the said wardens or one of them write and recorde in the same all the weddinges christenynges and buryenges made the hole weke before. And that done to lay vpp the boke in the said coffer as afore And for euy tyme that the same shalbe omytted the partie that shalbe in the faulte therof shall forfett to the said churche IIIs IIIId to be emploied on the repation (reparation) of the same churche.”

The Act for the better regulating and preserving Parish and other Registers of Births, Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, in England [28th July 1812.] (Rose's Act) repeated the instruction :-
“V. And be it further enacted, That the several Books wherein such Entries shall respectively be made, and all Register Books heretofore in use, shall be deemed to belong to every such Parish or chapelry respectively, and shall be kept by, and remain in the power and Custody of the Rector, Vicar, Curate,  or other Officiating minister of each respective Parish or Chapelry as aforesaid, and shall be by him safely and securely kept in a dry well-painted Iron Chest, to be provided and repaired as Occasion may require, at the expence of the Parish or Chapelry, and which said Chest containing the said Books shall be constantly kept locked in some dry, safe and secure Place within the usual Place of residence of such Rector, Vicar, Curate, or other Officiating Minister (if resident, within the Parish or Chapelry) or in the Parish Church or Chapel ; and the said books shall not, nor shall any of them be taken or removed from or out of the said Chest at any Time or for any cause whatever, except for the purpose of making such Entries therein as aforesaid, or for the Inspection of Persons desirous to make search therein, or to obtain Copies from or out of the same, or to be produced as Evidence in some Court of Law or Equity, or to be inspected as to the State and Condition thereof, or for some of the Purposes of this Act ; and that immediately after making such respective Entries, or producing the said Books respectively for the Purposes aforesaid, the said Books shall forthwith again be safely and securely deposited in the said Chest.”
Cheers
Guy
As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.
Hardwork
Posts: 86
Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 14:15

Re: Find my Past subscriptions

Post by Hardwork »

Interesting. So are we saying that all record offices and archives are merely holding these documents on behalf of a church whilst carrying no legal requirement as to their care themselves, or are they doing that solely as Diocesan Record Offices, and does the Church of England contribute financially towards these services?

Thomas Cromwell, as Vicar General was appointed by Henry VIII when the latter assumed being the Head of the Church. The 1644 Ordinance came from from Parliament which at that time was not recognised by the King (due to the Civil War), and therefore whether deemed valid or not, was a legal instruction of the state, not the church, so they were presumably exercising civil authority superseding what had been hitherto been purely an ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the monarch. It is a fascinating period in English history. Rose's Act 1812 that you quote must also have been superseded as plainly "redundant" registers are not in compliance with the wording you quote.

Anyway, this is a debate that has strayed a long way from the original topic of this thread, I realise, so it is probably best to discontinue it but I'd be interested to know the exact division of responsibility (if there is one) for the ownership, welfare and protection of the registers in law, these days. Please personal message me if anyone knows the answer.
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