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BUTLER from Woolwich

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Gloryer
Posts: 6
Joined: 24 Aug 2021, 10:30

BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by Gloryer »

I have posted this before on familytreeforum but still have not been able to unravel the BUTLER family. I have been researching for 20+ years so when I started out I followed the paper trail and used certificates and parish records. My paper trail gives me Maria Butler married to William Pearson as my great grandparents. My dad always said he was a Smith and not a Pearson and dna has proved him right so I dont have any dna connection to Maria Butler but would love to solve the mystery that surrounds her.
Maria Butler married William Pearson 2nd august 1890 Northfleet Kent England and puts her father as William Butler. The 1939 register gives her birthdate 15 jan 1870 and census gives her birthplace as Woolwich.
1881 census she is in the metropolitan district school sutton surrey after being transferred there along with her brother Charles Butler from Plumstead workhouse.They admitted themselves to Plumstead workhouse 17 jan 1878 and transferred to school 25 jan 1878.
The 1871 census shows a family with Charles and Maria same ages but born Hampstead and they are living in a caravan on hampstead heath, however this is not my Maria Butler as that one later married a George Shurety and is living with her in laws (spread out over 2 pages).
Before Maria leaves the school there appears to be a mass baptism and there is a Maria Butler baptised with father William.
Charles is discharge 30 oct 1882 but is readmitted next day by his brother William Butler that gives his address as 2 Howards Place Powis street.
So I have been trying to make the connection between William Butler and Charles and Maria but cant work out how he is their brother or any other connection. I have worked out that William Butler from howard place is the son of David Butler and Emily Tanner but born before their marriage and David died quite young leaving Emily with several children but none of them seem to be Charles and Maria. Emily was charged with shop lifting at one point but disappears soon after. I dont know if she remarried or moved to another county or died young herself.
I have never found a birth registration for Maria but would love to know how William Butler from Howards Yard/place Powis street is connected to Charles Butler and Maria Butler then it may give me a clue to where she actually came from.
I have gone round in circles with his one formany years and always end up coming back to it. I did spend a day at the archives going through the meetings for clues but found nothing.
meekhcs
Posts: 468
Joined: 02 Jun 2020, 18:19
Location: Lincolnshire, but Hampshire born and bred!

Re: BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by meekhcs »

Hello and welcome to The Forum.
I presume you had some response to your previous Forum posts it would be useful if you could post the links to these to helpWWW Forum members get a further handle on your research, and to stop them wasting time by revisiting research that has already been covered elsewhere. Hopefully we can then help you further in your quest.
Sally
avaline
Posts: 77
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 23:23

Re: BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by avaline »

Gloryer wrote: 26 Aug 2021, 05:20 Charles is discharge 30 oct 1882 but is readmitted next day by his brother William Butler that gives his address as 2 Howards Place Powis street.
I'm not sure that's entirely correct. The creed register says his brother William is next of kin but that the informant is 'self' (Charles). The earlier creed register said Charles & Maria had no relatives & were illegitimate.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1411240

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1411240

The school register says Charles was discharged from the school on 13 Jun 1882, but on the second page there's a note saying he was returned to the workhouse on 31 Oct 1882 due to bad behaviour - was this perhaps during his trial with Mr Gess? He seems to have been sent back to Mr Gess on 30 Dec 1882.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... at=1411240
VALLMO9
Posts: 757
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by VALLMO9 »

Suggestion to OP: As William Butler is named as next of kin in the Workhouse record, have you tried researching him prior to the 1881 census? Looks like he's residing at 3 Howards Yard, Powis Street, Woolwich in 1881 (almost the identical address from the Workhouse record).

His 1873 marriage record indicates an address of 9 Orchard Place for both. As this William Butler is your only other "known commodity" stick with him prior to 1881, and see where he leads you.

Is William living with mother Emily and younger siblings in Woolwich in 1871 at 9 George Place?
Three late baptisms in 1859 for William John (born 1851), John Charles (born 1856), and David James (born 1858).
Parents' address for each baptism: 4 Harrington's Buildings, Woolwich.

Several younger siblings were baptised from 1861-1863. Address for each baptism: 16 Hardin's [Hardens] Manorway, Charlton.
Parents: David & Emily Butler. Looks like they married in 1857 in Lewisham. So does that mean William John (1851) and John Charles (1856) are the sons of David and Emily? Or were they born before Emily met David Butler?

If the family were residing in Woolwich in 1861, you probably won't find them. The 1861 census for Woolwich is missing. Piece 407, Ward: Woolwich.
Last edited by VALLMO9 on 05 Sep 2021, 16:34, edited 5 times in total.
VALLMO9
Posts: 757
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by VALLMO9 »

avaline wrote: 31 Aug 2021, 03:40 The earlier creed register said Charles & Maria had no relatives & were illegitimate.
That's what I find peculiar about this Butler family mystery, particularly the "workhouse years". The 1878 creed register says no relations for these two kids. But in 1882, Charles indicates that William Butler (Powis Street) is his relation.

So how did Charles suddenly gain a relative (William) four years later? I certainly don't doubt it, but it's all very odd. And if they genuinely thought they had no relations c1878, who had been looking after them until then? (I'm a bit sketchy with older illegitimate children in the Workhouse, which the Butler kids were).

Did an older relative tell them to go to the Workhouse in 1878 (and perhaps even earlier). As both kids were school-aged - with the possibility of being placed in a district school - did an older relation use the Workhouse as a "coping strategy"? If there was an older relation, they apparently weren't bothered about the complex matter of "custody rights" in relation to district schools.

Unaccompanied children constituted the bulk of district school populations. When a child arrived at a district school admission officials recorded a very limited amount of information.

And how did Maria know her DoB? Interesting that she was baptised in 1884 at age 13/14. Was this a Workhouse requirement - so that she could enter service after finishing school?
Gloryer
Posts: 6
Joined: 24 Aug 2021, 10:30

Re: BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by Gloryer »

thank you for all the replies. It really is an odd situation!! William Butler was born before his parents were married. But there does not seem to be any connection between William Butler of Howards Place/Yard and Charles Butler other than when Charles is admitted to the workhouse and he is said to be his brother. The other strange thing is the similarities on 1871 census with the family living in a caravan on Hampstead Heath But that Maria Butler is seen married to George Shurety on a later census. The census is spread over 2 pages and I believe Maria is on the 2nd page with her inlaws. I wonder if my Maria and Charles were told to use their identity when entering the school as they dont appear anywhere on 1871 census and there isnt any birth registration for Maria, Unfortunately Charles Butler is a common name so I cant pinpoint him down to any particular birth.

https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/r ... -new-clues

Thats is the link to one of my previous posts
I have been searching this for several years and keep coming back to it every so often as I can never seem to resolve it. I was hoping a fresh pair of eyes or a different angle might make some understanding of it all
Gloryer
Posts: 6
Joined: 24 Aug 2021, 10:30

Re: BUTLER from Woolwich

Post by Gloryer »

VALLMO9 wrote: 02 Sep 2021, 01:54
avaline wrote: 31 Aug 2021, 03:40 The earlier creed register said Charles & Maria had no relatives & were illegitimate.
That's what I find peculiar about this Butler family mystery, particularly the "workhouse years". The 1878 creed register says no relations for these two kids. But in 1882, Charles indicates that William Butler (Powis Street) is his relation.

So how did Charles suddenly gain a relative (William) four years later? I certainly don't doubt it, but it's all very odd. And if they genuinely thought they had no relations c1878, who had been looking after them until then? (I'm a bit sketchy with older illegitimate children in the Workhouse, which the Butler kids were).

Did an older relative tell them to go to the Workhouse in 1878 (and perhaps even earlier). As both kids were school-aged - with the possibility of being placed in a district school - did an older relation use the Workhouse as a "coping strategy"? If there was an older relation, they apparently weren't bothered about the complex matter of "custody rights" in relation to district schools.

Unaccompanied children constituted the bulk of district school populations. When a child arrived at a district school admission officials recorded a very limited amount of information.

And how did Maria know her DoB? Interesting that she was baptised in 1884 at age 13/14. Was this a Workhouse requirement - so that she could enter service after finishing school?
I repeatedly ask myself all these questions every time I revisit this part of my tree............ It is all very peculiar :D
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