I'm trying to find my Gt<G.mothers birthplace. She was born c1819/20 & wed William Hillidge/Illidge in 1836 at Warrington parish church. The marriage cert states her maiden name as MARY OGINS, but on their childrens birth certs it says MARY HODGSON.
On each census she gave five places of birth from 1851 - 1891: Penketh, Lancs; Lancaster, Lancs; Kirby Lonsdale, Westmoreland; Hutton Roof, Westmoreland; and Whittington, Lancs. I haven't found her in any of these places in 26 years of searching. Any ideas would be most welcome.
Many thanks in advance.
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Where was she born
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Norfolk Nan
- Posts: 506
- Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
- Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk
Re: Where was she born
Hi Bejay
I took a look at the Lancashire Online Parish project (https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/) and only found one other example of the name Oggins (James in Oldham) but it seems they consider the name Oggins to be a variant of the Huggins and Hoggins (and there are dozens of those). Might be worth bearing that in mind as there are so few records for the Ogins/Oggins name anywhere else. There are several Mary Hodgsons that might fit the bill baptised in the Warrington area but that doesn't explain the Ogins name does it. The search continues...
I took a look at the Lancashire Online Parish project (https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/) and only found one other example of the name Oggins (James in Oldham) but it seems they consider the name Oggins to be a variant of the Huggins and Hoggins (and there are dozens of those). Might be worth bearing that in mind as there are so few records for the Ogins/Oggins name anywhere else. There are several Mary Hodgsons that might fit the bill baptised in the Warrington area but that doesn't explain the Ogins name does it. The search continues...
Re: Where was she born
Hi Norfolk Nan,
Thanks for your help. I also checked the Lancs Parish Reg's but didn't see Oggins & no Ogins at all. Yes there were quite a few Mary Hodgsons in the Regs
but none around her birth year - if that is correct, of course. I have "kind of adopted" a Mary bapt 24th October 1819 at Warton, near Lancaster to Thomas & Jane Hodgson. I didn't find this Mary on the 1841 census or a marriage for her up to 1836 so she may be mine but not proven as yet. Though
I'll not give u looking for her.
Bejay
Thanks for your help. I also checked the Lancs Parish Reg's but didn't see Oggins & no Ogins at all. Yes there were quite a few Mary Hodgsons in the Regs
but none around her birth year - if that is correct, of course. I have "kind of adopted" a Mary bapt 24th October 1819 at Warton, near Lancaster to Thomas & Jane Hodgson. I didn't find this Mary on the 1841 census or a marriage for her up to 1836 so she may be mine but not proven as yet. Though
I'll not give u looking for her.
Bejay
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Norfolk Nan
- Posts: 506
- Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
- Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk
Re: Where was she born
I looked on Ancestry and the other sites and Ogins or Oggins is quite unusual so variants are certainly something to think about. Are you sure you have the right couple? I ask that because there is another William Hillidge knocking about at the same time (the Lancashire archives has some interesting docs about court appearances). How she went from Ogins to Hodgson is also a mystery. Ogins sounds to me like the sounds-like spelling of a clerk who couldn't make out an accent and wasn't corrected by the name-owner whereas Hodgson is quite a definate name with fixed spelling. if she had been born Ogins but married as Hodgson you'd think 'second marriage' or perhaps 'step-child' but that's not the case.
As I've also chased a couple of brickwalls for decades I know how easy it is to get caught up in a story that seems to fit the information you have and ignore other options so forgive me for raising these points - the Og/Oggins I did find frequently came from Ireland. Have you considered that? If she had been born in Ireland but brought over as an infant she may have believed she was born in the earliest place she remembered, somewhere in Lancashire for example. Of course, if she was Irish she might also have been christened in a catholic church. Or not christened/baptised at all.
Also, she made her mark rather than signed her marriage certificate which wasn't uncommon but suggests she was illiterate. It might account why her age varied and her place of birth did too - I always think that if you have to rely on someone else to fill in forms you are at their mercy for getting the facts right. Perhaps it's just easier to say a nearby place so that you appear to be local and attract no unwanted attention from someone doing official work?
One other thing - you think she was born c1820 and married 1836, making her just 16. It's possible but it's not common for the poor to marry early. All the social history literature says they tended to wait until they were well into their twenties. Perhaps she was older than you think? Of course, you may be spot on. Hopefully the evidence that's out there waiting for you will confirm your thinking.
As I've also chased a couple of brickwalls for decades I know how easy it is to get caught up in a story that seems to fit the information you have and ignore other options so forgive me for raising these points - the Og/Oggins I did find frequently came from Ireland. Have you considered that? If she had been born in Ireland but brought over as an infant she may have believed she was born in the earliest place she remembered, somewhere in Lancashire for example. Of course, if she was Irish she might also have been christened in a catholic church. Or not christened/baptised at all.
Also, she made her mark rather than signed her marriage certificate which wasn't uncommon but suggests she was illiterate. It might account why her age varied and her place of birth did too - I always think that if you have to rely on someone else to fill in forms you are at their mercy for getting the facts right. Perhaps it's just easier to say a nearby place so that you appear to be local and attract no unwanted attention from someone doing official work?
One other thing - you think she was born c1820 and married 1836, making her just 16. It's possible but it's not common for the poor to marry early. All the social history literature says they tended to wait until they were well into their twenties. Perhaps she was older than you think? Of course, you may be spot on. Hopefully the evidence that's out there waiting for you will confirm your thinking.
Re: Where was she born
Hi Norfolk Nan,
My apologies for not replying yesterday when I was on line, it was quite late ( or I should say early morning as I'm a bit of a 'night owl').
I'm 99% sure that I have the right family, going by what my late mum & her siblings told me. I suppose you can never be 100% in a case like this. On the 1841 census Mary's age is 20 & Williams is 25 as the ages are rounded down for that census. William would be 29 then. 1851 says Mary is 30. 1861 she is 41 and so on, varying by just one year up to 1891 when she is 71. Mary died in 1895/6 & William in 1868.
There are quite a few William's in the Illidge families, two died in WW1 & are mentioned on a memorial in St. Peters Church in Parr which is a suburb of St. Helens Lancs where the Illidge's moved to between 1851 - 1861. William & Mary are buried in St. Peters churchyard as are Williams brother's family & my mums parents.
I was pronouncing OGINS with a hard G but it could be Hodgins or similar with a soft G as in Hodgson but until I find her birth or baptism I'll never know.
You mentioned some interesting docs & court appearances for a William Hillidge in Lancashire Archives, are they on line or would I have to visit? A visit would be impossible now as I'm too old at 89 to get that far!
I hadn't ever thought of Mary being Irish & not found any other Irish in any of my family tree, but I'll look into that, thanks for the suggestion.
I also have a few brick walls in my fathers Blything family from Wales & his mothers Middletons from Dent, Yorks, & Allason/Allenson families from Cumberland too. But its been fun trying to find them.
There were some other replies to my query but they have disappeared from the list before I could reply. do you know how to get them back?
Bye for now, Bejay.
My apologies for not replying yesterday when I was on line, it was quite late ( or I should say early morning as I'm a bit of a 'night owl').
I'm 99% sure that I have the right family, going by what my late mum & her siblings told me. I suppose you can never be 100% in a case like this. On the 1841 census Mary's age is 20 & Williams is 25 as the ages are rounded down for that census. William would be 29 then. 1851 says Mary is 30. 1861 she is 41 and so on, varying by just one year up to 1891 when she is 71. Mary died in 1895/6 & William in 1868.
There are quite a few William's in the Illidge families, two died in WW1 & are mentioned on a memorial in St. Peters Church in Parr which is a suburb of St. Helens Lancs where the Illidge's moved to between 1851 - 1861. William & Mary are buried in St. Peters churchyard as are Williams brother's family & my mums parents.
I was pronouncing OGINS with a hard G but it could be Hodgins or similar with a soft G as in Hodgson but until I find her birth or baptism I'll never know.
You mentioned some interesting docs & court appearances for a William Hillidge in Lancashire Archives, are they on line or would I have to visit? A visit would be impossible now as I'm too old at 89 to get that far!
I hadn't ever thought of Mary being Irish & not found any other Irish in any of my family tree, but I'll look into that, thanks for the suggestion.
I also have a few brick walls in my fathers Blything family from Wales & his mothers Middletons from Dent, Yorks, & Allason/Allenson families from Cumberland too. But its been fun trying to find them.
There were some other replies to my query but they have disappeared from the list before I could reply. do you know how to get them back?
Bye for now, Bejay.
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Norfolk Nan
- Posts: 506
- Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
- Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk
Re: Where was she born
Hi Bejay
The court appearances were in the Lancashire archives but not digitised so it would be a visit or if some kind soul in the area could save you the trip... I'm in another area unfortunately. Of course no guarantee he's your William either. As for the missing posts - I'm not technical but it's possible the poster(s) deleted them after second thoughts.
Brickwalls are both frustrating and a wonderful challenge. I've got several that I keep chipping away at. By the way, I did notice on Ancestry that there was at least one - possibly more - family trees showing your Mary, not entirely accurate but good to know others are looking for her too. Have you been in touch? Good luck with the search...
The court appearances were in the Lancashire archives but not digitised so it would be a visit or if some kind soul in the area could save you the trip... I'm in another area unfortunately. Of course no guarantee he's your William either. As for the missing posts - I'm not technical but it's possible the poster(s) deleted them after second thoughts.
Brickwalls are both frustrating and a wonderful challenge. I've got several that I keep chipping away at. By the way, I did notice on Ancestry that there was at least one - possibly more - family trees showing your Mary, not entirely accurate but good to know others are looking for her too. Have you been in touch? Good luck with the search...
Re: Where was she born
Lancashire Archives has a mention for a William Hillidge in the "Entry in calendar of prisoners". However, it's dated 1823. So probably not your William Hillidge/Illidge, due to the year. Here's the link: https://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/ca ... 4193&pos=5
As Mary Ogins/Hodgson gives her birthplace as: Kirby Lonsdale, Westmoreland; Hutton Roof, Westmoreland; and Whittington, Lancs, it's likely she is originally from that neck of the woods. Her maiden name be from a step-father.
Also, the marriage witness Peter Brown could provide a clue. After all, how did Mary make her way down from Westmoreland to Penketh at such a young age? Back in the day, most brides married within their native parish, or very close to it. So does Peter Brown hold a possible clue? Unless, of course, he's just a local friend of the groom. (The other witness is probably the groom's sister).
As Mary Ogins/Hodgson gives her birthplace as: Kirby Lonsdale, Westmoreland; Hutton Roof, Westmoreland; and Whittington, Lancs, it's likely she is originally from that neck of the woods. Her maiden name be from a step-father.
Also, the marriage witness Peter Brown could provide a clue. After all, how did Mary make her way down from Westmoreland to Penketh at such a young age? Back in the day, most brides married within their native parish, or very close to it. So does Peter Brown hold a possible clue? Unless, of course, he's just a local friend of the groom. (The other witness is probably the groom's sister).
Re: Where was she born
Hi VALMO9, Thanks for the link to Lancashire Archives, I'll look that up.
Iv'e always wondered who Peter Brown was, perhaps her step-brother if she had one. I'll certainly have another search for him online. You have the
same thoughts as me regarding how Mary got to Warrington, maybe she was a servant/skivvy to a family in the area, Its surprising just how far people did travel back then even just walking long distances for work. Two more eamples of that are my fathers G.parents. His G.father Thomas Middleton came from Dent in Yorkshire to Liverpool in the 1840s & he wed Jane Allason/Allenson in 1850 in Liverpool & she came from Egremont in Cumberland. Thomas was in Dent workhouse at the age of 10yrs in 1840 and I wondered how he came to be in Liverpool. Maybe he was sent to work here from the workhouse!
Thanks again, Bejay
Iv'e always wondered who Peter Brown was, perhaps her step-brother if she had one. I'll certainly have another search for him online. You have the
same thoughts as me regarding how Mary got to Warrington, maybe she was a servant/skivvy to a family in the area, Its surprising just how far people did travel back then even just walking long distances for work. Two more eamples of that are my fathers G.parents. His G.father Thomas Middleton came from Dent in Yorkshire to Liverpool in the 1840s & he wed Jane Allason/Allenson in 1850 in Liverpool & she came from Egremont in Cumberland. Thomas was in Dent workhouse at the age of 10yrs in 1840 and I wondered how he came to be in Liverpool. Maybe he was sent to work here from the workhouse!
Thanks again, Bejay
Re: Where was she born
I'm no expert regarding Westmorland parish records, but it seems like there aren't many online. Example: Find My Past has a Westmorland Baptisms collection, but there are only 931 records in it. A quick look at the early 19th century records suggests there are only two parishes in this collection: Dufton and Crook. 
So if your Mary Ogins/Hodgson was from Westmorland, the lack of online Westmorland parish records may explain the 'absence' of her baptism record.
Note: In the 1841 and 1851 census reports, there are a handful of people named Hodgson residing in Hutton Roof, Whittington, and Kirkby Lonsdale. They may require further research, in order to connect your Mary to them.
Hopefully this link may offer guidance relating to Westmorland/Cumbria parish records: https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/archives/onl ... parish.asp
The A-Z List in the above website does include Hutton Roof and Kirkby Lonsdale.
Bejay - I have sent you a PM (private message) via this Forum. Refer to the icon to the left of your Username (top upper right of screen, where you log off).
So if your Mary Ogins/Hodgson was from Westmorland, the lack of online Westmorland parish records may explain the 'absence' of her baptism record.
Note: In the 1841 and 1851 census reports, there are a handful of people named Hodgson residing in Hutton Roof, Whittington, and Kirkby Lonsdale. They may require further research, in order to connect your Mary to them.
Hopefully this link may offer guidance relating to Westmorland/Cumbria parish records: https://www.cumbria.gov.uk/archives/onl ... parish.asp
The A-Z List in the above website does include Hutton Roof and Kirkby Lonsdale.
Bejay - I have sent you a PM (private message) via this Forum. Refer to the icon to the left of your Username (top upper right of screen, where you log off).
Re: Where was she born
Apparently there is an 1831 census for Penketh. It features only the male head of house, occupation, and number of people in the household. So quite similar to the US 1840 census report.
This 1831 census is discussed on Rootschat. I believe a RC forum member has the transcripts. I'm not a member of Rootschat, but some members here are. Perhaps they can reach out to the person with the 1831 transcripts on your behalf, to ask if the census report includes a Hodgson/Ogins family. If it does, it might be something to go on.
This 1831 census is discussed on Rootschat. I believe a RC forum member has the transcripts. I'm not a member of Rootschat, but some members here are. Perhaps they can reach out to the person with the 1831 transcripts on your behalf, to ask if the census report includes a Hodgson/Ogins family. If it does, it might be something to go on.