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Another Murray

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Norfolk Nan
Posts: 499
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Another Murray

Post by Norfolk Nan »

Forgive me for bringing another Murray to your attention but I would really appreciate fresh eyes on this one:

I have an 1843 death certificate for a Thomas Murray, aged 60,a brickmaker of 13 Elder Walk, Islington reported by Sarah Hannah Murray of 6 Elder Walk, present at the death. She doesn't explain how she is related to Thomas. I also have a report from the Old Bailey dated 15 September 1819 of a case of a Thomas Murray, labourer of St Mary's Parish, Islington being the victim of a theft of a clock. A witness is Sarah Murray, his daughter. Do these two events involve the same people? I can't find Sarah in Islington on the 1841 or 1851 census and I haven't found an obvious record for Sarah's baptism.

If anyone has time to spare and can help I'd be very grateful. Thank you.
VALLMO9
Posts: 756
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: Another Murray

Post by VALLMO9 »

Do you have Thomas Murray in the 1841 census? Is he at Elder Walk in Islington? Was he married or widowed when he died? (I see a William Murray, age 24, at Elder Walk in the 1861 census. Is he related?)
Norfolk Nan
Posts: 499
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Re: Another Murray

Post by Norfolk Nan »

If he is the same chap, Thomas, wife Jane and sons William and James are living in 97 Cliffords Buildings off Elder Walk in 1841. I've lost sight of Jane and it is possible that a William, living in Elder Walk in 1851 is also there in 1861 - he's single so nothing to pin him to Thomas. James is elsewhere.

The death cert doesn't show his status, nor identify the relationship with the informant (Sarah).

It's probable Thomas in 1841 and 1843 are the same - right area, same occupation - but is he the same Thomas as in 1819? The 1841 Thomas married Jane Susannah Parsons in Spitalfields in 1826 and was a widower. In the Old Bailey report Sarah is his daughter, no other details (ie ages, marital status) are stated.
VALLMO9
Posts: 756
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: Another Murray

Post by VALLMO9 »

Norfolk Nan wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 11:23 The 1841 Thomas married Jane Susannah Parsons in Spitalfields in 1826 and was a widower.
Do you have any details regarding his previous wife's name and all the children they had? (Sarah Hannah Murray could be a daughter-in-law of Thomas).
What was Thomas' occupation and address when he remarried in 1826?

Have you checked for available workhouse records (Spitafields and Islington) for Thomas and Jane?
Norfolk Nan
Posts: 499
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Re: Another Murray

Post by Norfolk Nan »

Nothing has come up for Thomas and Jane aside from a legal matter in 1828 and I haven't pinpointed Jane's early history or what happened after Thomas died. No occupation or address (OTP) for Thomas at time of marriage, witnesses included a Frances Murray - haven't pinpointed her either! Plenty of clues but nothing that links! In 1828 there is a John Murray involved but no idea who he is either.

No idea about Thomas's first wife - I found a marriage to an Ann Homes in 1814, but I haven't found a birth/baptism of a Sarah that matches. They are all mysteries.
VALLMO9
Posts: 756
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: Another Murray

Post by VALLMO9 »

As previously suggested SHM could be an in-law, which is why it's important to focus on the sons he had from his first marriage. After all, Caroline Lee was the informant when her in-laws died in 1916.

I'm struggling a bit with the locations: 1819 (Islington incident), 1824 (remarriage in Spitafields), and 1841-43 (Islington). Are you fairly certain about the Spitafields marriage? Do you know where Thomas was born?

What is the 1828 incident about? What was the location. etc?
Norfolk Nan
Posts: 499
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Re: Another Murray

Post by Norfolk Nan »

No, not sure of any of it - a whole pile of facts that involve a Thomas in similar areas that could be him but the births and marriages happen before civil reg and don't provide any more than I've mentioned. I can't find a baptism for James. I have several possible baptisms for a Thomas.

The 1828 incident is an indictment for larceny for both Thomas and a Jane Susannah Murray (6 weeks prison time) and longer plus a whipping for a John Murray. I have mentioned the marriage in 1826 for a Thomas Murray to a Jane Susannah Parsons and I'm happy these are the same people. Their marriage witnesses include a Frances Murray, again she could be an in-law but I haven't found siblings for Thomas because I don't know for certain who is parents are.

I'm particularly interested in the 1819 Old Bailey case - Sarah is a witness, described as daughter but what's the minimum age for a witness at the time? The case was proven and the three guilty parties (in their 20s) were sentenced to death - all for a clock!
VALLMO9
Posts: 756
Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: Another Murray

Post by VALLMO9 »

Does the 1828 larceny incident give an address where the Murray's were living? I don't see the incident listed in newspaper reports, etc.
As for the 1843 death cert: I think SHM is an in-law, maybe even a sister-in-law. If she was a spinster daughter of Thomas, wouldn't she be living with her father at 13 Elder Walk (instead of a few doors away)? Also, if she was a blood relative you'd think that would be noted on the death cert. (I have an ancestor's 1866 death cert where the informant was the brother-in-law, and the relationship is not stated on the death cert).

With the 1819 clock theft: there's not many details in the Old Bailey record you can work with. Thomas is listed as "labourer" and no specific address is mentioned. It could be another Thomas Murray, also living in Islington. I'd move on from this incident. Concentrate on Thomas before his second marriage.
Norfolk Nan
Posts: 499
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 11:54
Location: A Londoner lost in Norfolk

Re: Another Murray

Post by Norfolk Nan »

No addresses but the hearing was in Clerkenwell. That's it - nothing more to go on. Thanks for looking :D
jonwarrn
Posts: 313
Joined: 03 Jul 2020, 19:49

Re: Another Murray

Post by jonwarrn »

Norfolk Nan wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 11:23The 1841 Thomas married Jane Susannah Parsons in Spitalfields in 1826 and was a widower.
Ancestry have a settlement record for this Thomas Murray in Shoreditch in January 1839 (London, England, Selected Poor Law Removal and Settlement Records, 1698-1922)
Currently residing in the workhouse.
Thomas says he is about fifty years of age.
Claims to have married Harriet Susannah Dodd at Plumstead in 1810.
By her has five children, Harriet, now about 25 years of age, William, 24, George, 21, Sarah, 17, and Edward, 13.
Harriet died in November 1825.

Thomas was then married at Christchurch Spitalfields in 1826 to Susannah Parsons, "who is away and he hath not seen or heard from her since May 1833" :o

He says his parents were Thomas and Ann Murray, and he left home aged 19 and went to sea.
Father died in Jamaica. Mother still alive and living Phillips Street, Kingsland Road.

There may be a Shoreditch workhouse entry on ancestry for Thomas and son Edward in 1839.
Also the whole family were in there on 9 Dec 1826 (Murry) - Thos, Jane Susan, Harriett, William, George, Sarah, and Edward.
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