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41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

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Jimbo50
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Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 19:26

41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by Jimbo50 »

I have found various references to John McDonalds in muster lists of Chelsea Pensioners, and a death of a sergeant John McDonald in Moraviantown, Canada in 1813. I can't link any to him. More importantly, I have failed to find marriage or birth, only this baptism in 1784 at High St. Presbyterian, Portsmouth. Any help would be appreciated. Do sign up papers exist ? Thank you.
Mary McDonald 1784 Baptism Record Portsmouth Presbyterian.jpg
Mary McDonald 1784 Baptism Record Portsmouth Presbyterian.jpg (142.86 KiB) Viewed 1320 times
meekhcs
Posts: 464
Joined: 02 Jun 2020, 18:19
Location: Lincolnshire, but Hampshire born and bred!

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by meekhcs »

The only help I can offer is that the 41st served in Canada 1812-1815. Have you tried researching the regiment itself which may offer clues as to where else they were stationed and could therefore provide clues to where a marriage may have taken place?
Sally
Jimbo50
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Joined: 15 Jun 2020, 19:26

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by Jimbo50 »

Thank you Sally. I did discover the website of a re-enactment group , I think, in Canada. www.fortyfirst.org , It contains letters and documents transcribed, which highlighted the plight of the 41st leaving Ireland for Canada and their lack of proper clothing etc. for the climate. Jim
meekhcs
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Joined: 02 Jun 2020, 18:19
Location: Lincolnshire, but Hampshire born and bred!

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by meekhcs »

Put 41st regt of foot into google and you will find many sites. They were in West Indies prior to Canada and were certainly garrisoned at Portsmouth for a while. I didn't go through/read them all.

The army lists on Ancestry and FMP were not helpful. I am not a military expert. Hopefully others will be able to offer further help.
Sally
VALLMO9
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Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by VALLMO9 »

FMP have a record with image for a John McDonald who served with the 41st and 42nd foot regiments:

WO 121 - Chelsea Pensioners' Discharge Documents 1760-1887
Date: 1788
Description: JOHN MCDONALD
Born [Not Known]
Served in 42nd Foot Regiment; 41st Foot Regiment
Discharged aged [Not Known] after 8 years 6 months of service

Sorry, I don't have a FMP subscription to view the other details (if any). The above is taken from the TNA record.
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AdrianBruce
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Joined: 14 Jun 2020, 18:57
Location: South Cheshire

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by AdrianBruce »

Q: Do sign up papers exist?
A: No. What survives are the Chelsea Pensioner records which sometimes (depending on the period, I think) look like the sign-up Attestation papers, or like a revised version of them. The Chelsea documents are actually discharge documents. (Some soldiers don't even have that, they just have 1 line entries in a register.)

Because the surviving individual documents are pension related, that means that anyone who died in service (e.g. the guy from Moraviantown) won't appear in these (pension related) documents. (No there wasn't any death-in-service benefit!)

In the absence of a consistent set of personnel papers, it may be necessary to look at Muster Rolls. These are only at Kew - unless you strike lucky with the Canada related ones that were filmed by Ancestry.

The 1784 John McD, from the 41st, should be in this piece of the Muster Rolls:
Reference: WO 12/5406
Description: 41st Foot 1st Battalion
Date: 1779 - 1798

(Ignore the 1st Battalion bit - according to Wikipedia, it had 2 battalions in 1813, otherwise 1 only)

The 1813 Musters (as per Sergeant McD d1813) will be in either
Reference: WO 12/5477
Description: 41st Foot 2nd Battalion (incorporated with 1st Battalion Dec. 1813)
Date: 1812 - 1813

or

Reference: WO 12/5416
Description: 41st Foot 1st Battalion
Date: 1812 - 1814

However, according to the Ancestry browse facility, the 41st is not one of those filmed in "UK, Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900". Despite it being in Canada.

The Muster Rolls can give some more details about the soldiers - but whether there is enough to identify anyone - depends.....
Adrian Bruce
VALLMO9
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Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by VALLMO9 »

AdrianBruce wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 22:49 The 1784 John McD, from the 41st, should be in this piece of the Muster Rolls:
Reference: WO 12/5406
Description: 41st Foot 1st Battalion
Date: 1779 - 1798
As he served with the 42nd from c1779-1782, he might also be in the these Muster Rolls:
Reference: WO 12/5479
Description: 42nd Foot 1st Battalion (oldest Highland Regt in the British Army)
Date: 1777 - 1786

Reference: WO 12/5553
Description: 42nd Foot 2nd Battalion
Date: 1759 - 1783

Given that his daughter's 1784 baptism was Non-Conformist (Presbyterian), he could've been Scottish.
By the way, the chap with the 1788 Chelsea Pensioner record was discharged in Portsmouth. So he's a good fit, so far.
VALLMO9
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Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by VALLMO9 »

Partial timeline for the 42nd from 1779-1783 (in North America):

In September 1778 the Regiment was engaged in the relief of Newport, and from there were ordered to East Florida.
Participated in the Siege of Charleston, and the raid on Portsmouth, Virginia in 1780, then returned to Charleston and finally were sent to New York. The Colonel of the 42nd Regiment was Lord John Murray.

Note: A second battalion of the Regiment was formed in 1781 and sent to India

Muster Rolls details for the 42nd, 1st Battalion:
1778-1786: Begins in Philadelphia, followed by several locations on Long Island, New York, Camp near Greenwich, and Paulus Hook on 6 October 1783

The musters are arranged by company with the names of the officers and men listed by order of rank. The usual annotations describing the status of each individual are given and include: on duty, sick, recruiting, transferred, absent with leave, dead, prisoner, deserted, and discharged. The muster rolls during and immediately after the American Revolution are much longer, and contain more detailed information than the ones from the earlier years. The musters were usually compiled for a period of three or six months, and both the date and the location where the information was compiled are given. With the use of this information, the movements of the various companies can be traced.

This link provides a more complete timeline, as well as information regarding the "infamous" recruits to the 42nd in 1779:
https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/ ... kwatch.htm
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AdrianBruce
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Location: South Cheshire

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by AdrianBruce »

VALLMO9 wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 23:22
AdrianBruce wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 22:49 The 1784 John McD, from the 41st, should be in this piece of the Muster Rolls:
Reference: WO 12/5406
Description: 41st Foot 1st Battalion
Date: 1779 - 1798
As he served with the 42nd from c1779-1782, he might also be in the these Muster Rolls:
...
When I referred to the 1784 John McD from the 41st, I was referring to the 1784 baptism. Unless I'm missing something in here or in another thread (and I could be!), I know of nothing to connect the John McD of the 1784 baptism to the John McD of the 41st and 42nd regiments. My feeling from looking at FMP is that there are a number of guys named John McD in the 41st at one time or another. And I couldn't find that guy from WO 121 in FMP...
Adrian Bruce
VALLMO9
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Joined: 13 Jun 2020, 21:28

Re: 41st Regt of Foot. the Invalids. 1784

Post by VALLMO9 »

I think I'm confused now. :? My search result was based on the John McDonald in the 1784 baptism image that Jimbo attached above. In that image, it says the father "was of the 41st Regt of Foot". So I found the FMP Chelsea Pensioner record (dated 1788) for the John McDonald who served with the 42nd regiment, then the 41st regiment. He was discharged in early 1788 in Portsmouth (same location as the 1784 baptism).

But it could all just be a coincidence... I didn't extend my searching to 1800 onwards. I'm wondering if the "was of the 41st Regt of Foot" meant that he was no longer with the 41st by the time his daughter was born? Or is that me being too pedantic for my own good? Maybe Jimbo's not really interested in the father recorded in the 1784 baptism record?
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